Nark, forgot to mention, very cool quote.
Big Dog
JoinedPosts by Big Dog
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43
The Dangers and Morality of Science
by Big Dog inwith all the discussion here about the dangers of religion, its morality issues, and so on i thought it would be interesting to have a discussion (especially given the large population of science oriented folks on this board) where we discuss the same issues with respect to science.
now this is not meant to be some i want to go back to the dark ages thread, but more so that recognition that there are moral, ethical, and hell survival issues with science that need to be addressed.. michael crichton as most know is both a famous author and an extremely bright individual who attended harvard medical school, in his novel jurrassic park he raised some issues with science and its dangers: .
"jurassic park was intended to warn the general public concerning the inherent dangers of biotechnology first of all, but also science in general.
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43
The Dangers and Morality of Science
by Big Dog inwith all the discussion here about the dangers of religion, its morality issues, and so on i thought it would be interesting to have a discussion (especially given the large population of science oriented folks on this board) where we discuss the same issues with respect to science.
now this is not meant to be some i want to go back to the dark ages thread, but more so that recognition that there are moral, ethical, and hell survival issues with science that need to be addressed.. michael crichton as most know is both a famous author and an extremely bright individual who attended harvard medical school, in his novel jurrassic park he raised some issues with science and its dangers: .
"jurassic park was intended to warn the general public concerning the inherent dangers of biotechnology first of all, but also science in general.
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Big Dog
BTT, I was hoping Tetra and Doogie would weigh in here, and all the other brainiacs. Edited to add: Unless this is a pitifully stupid thread, then ignore.
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91
creationism in the us of a
by googlemagoogle injust read in the newspaper that some 54% of americans favor creationism and diss darwin.
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i know, never trust a stat you haven't faked yourself, but... is creationism (especially yec) really that wide spread in the us?
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Big Dog
but, lets talk about depression and anger and ratios while we're at it. sure, no criminal is going to say i raped the lady next door because jesus told me to do it. but, where does his anger and sexulal frustration come from? and what role does an anthropocentric belief system play in such a person, if even privately OR subconsciously? i don't know, but i also see a lot of angry and depressed religious people. i wonder if the ratio of angry and depressed religious people within a religious population, is the same as the number of angry and depressed atheist people within an atheist population? i don't know. but i suppose it is determinable. i basically just created a falsifiable hypothesis that is testable.
Tetra, let's write up a grant proposal and do a study, it sure as hell beats working for living. You raise a very interesting point there about the anger and repressed emotions, etc. I would be the first to agree that a fair amount of people go off the rails due to those forces, probably the other half are just animals. Yeah, I am reading athiest websites, I don't have my head in the sand, in my ass sometimes maybe but not in the sand, i am open to checking it all out before I put my money down on the pass line. I am still working out my whole world view which like I told you before, has been on the shelf for a long time as I worked out the practical issues of my life. Now that I have those sorted out I'm working on the philosophical stuff or whatever the heck you want to call it.
(full-time school + full-time work = full-time zombie
Doogie, been there done that and it sucked, hard. But trust me, eventually it will be over, just when you are doing it that day never seems like it is going to get there. I'm sure the topic of where morals, ethics, conscience has been done before, by people better than me, so I'll just shut the frick up and go read some philosophy and anthropology books.
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91
creationism in the us of a
by googlemagoogle injust read in the newspaper that some 54% of americans favor creationism and diss darwin.
.
i know, never trust a stat you haven't faked yourself, but... is creationism (especially yec) really that wide spread in the us?
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Big Dog
except that religion is the principle label (if even only privately) that people can latch onto to justify their immoral actions.
Tetra,
I'm going to try and get a little technical with ya . I was reading an athiest website last night and I think I fully understand that atheism is non-belief. Okay, I get that, its not a belief system its just non-belief. Okay, so all of the people that commit crimes, immoral actions that are not christians, or have no moral beliefs are still committing crimes and immoral actions, they just aren't using a belief system to justify them, they are just doing them because that's what they want to do.
I'd be willing to wager that most hardened criminals in the prisions, both here and in Canada would not say they committed their crimes because of any religious beliefs, ie.they are not going to say, I blew away the liquor store owner because I am a christian, or I raped the lady next door because Jesus commanded me to, etc.. I'd be more willing to bet if you could get inside of their heads, that they did it because they are a little closer to our animal cousins that you, me, and Doogie are.
Okay, so my point, yes, people use religion (any religion) often times to justify heinous actions, but there are plenty of people, and that number I think might out weigh the religious folks that committ crimes, well, just because. As you pointed out above and as others did, its a people thing, its not because they believe or don't believe, its because they are rotten pieces of crap. I just don't see religion as the threat you do, believers and non-believers can be really, really rotten.
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91
creationism in the us of a
by googlemagoogle injust read in the newspaper that some 54% of americans favor creationism and diss darwin.
.
i know, never trust a stat you haven't faked yourself, but... is creationism (especially yec) really that wide spread in the us?
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Big Dog
i don't beat my girlfriend because ;i love her and beating isn't a very ;nice thing to do. of course, there are laws preventing me from stealing, or abusing my dog or girlfriend, but that's not why i don't do those things. if they were lifted i firmly believe i would still hold to my ethics.
Doog, I totally believe that statement, which I guess leads to the endless debate about where your ethics came from. You are a good person, why? Evolution programmed you to be good? You have a God given conscience that is born into you?
I think about ethics and morality sometimes and wonder, if there is no God, higher power, whatever, how did we arrive at what most of us would subscribe to as morally good things and morally bad things (and this is getting way off topic so I'll either shut up or start another thread)? Like the founding fathers with, we hold these truths to be self evident, sometimes I read that and think, huh, what does that mean. Are there some universal truths out there? More philosophy than anything i guess.
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91
creationism in the us of a
by googlemagoogle injust read in the newspaper that some 54% of americans favor creationism and diss darwin.
.
i know, never trust a stat you haven't faked yourself, but... is creationism (especially yec) really that wide spread in the us?
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Big Dog
It seems as though that the abscence of any form of religion is seen to be the ideal scenario among many here. Daunt and others, my point wasn't that you could only have morality through religion, it was that you can just as easily have amorality without religion, do you understand the point that I'm trying to make, that everyone suddenly jettisoning religious beliefs is not going to fix very many social problems? That neither religion nor non religion is going to give you a just society.
to say that the only reason people do good is fear of punishment is not really fair
Doogie, you know I love you man, but I'm not sure if I can go with the above. Have you seen the US Code, or the US penal code, or the local ordinances, etc. our whole secular justice system is a system of punishment for "wrongdoing". Do you think we would have the level of law and order we have (which according to many isn't much) without the threat of punishment we hang over the general population's head via the police and court system?
As for creationism, intelligent design, whatever you want to call it, I agree that it should not be taught in science classes, teach science in the schools and religion in church, fine by me. But I do think that kids need to be taught that yes science is self correcting, and the science you are taught today maynot be the science your grandchildren are taught 50 years from now.
As a side point, how is intelligent design via extra terrestrials religious?
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91
creationism in the us of a
by googlemagoogle injust read in the newspaper that some 54% of americans favor creationism and diss darwin.
.
i know, never trust a stat you haven't faked yourself, but... is creationism (especially yec) really that wide spread in the us?
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Big Dog
the idea that we are special creation is arrogant, and does not help in dangerous situations like ecology and war, to name a couple.
Tetra, I think just the opposite, to think that we are not special is very dangerous, if we are nothing but big brained apes then slaughtering a bunch of beings that swung down from the trees a couple of hundred thousand years ago is no big deal. They are nothing special, just animals with cognitive abilities, there is no higher power to answer to, you can kill as many as you want. I can rape the planet because once I'm dead, what do I care, I'm gone, I'm not going to be punished for it.
Christians are not the only ones that can use their world view to come up with some pretty twisted ideas IMO. I can't believe every slimy industrialist polluting the planet is a christian, nor do I believe every despot that practices genocide is a christian.
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91
creationism in the us of a
by googlemagoogle injust read in the newspaper that some 54% of americans favor creationism and diss darwin.
.
i know, never trust a stat you haven't faked yourself, but... is creationism (especially yec) really that wide spread in the us?
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Big Dog
Don't assume that all people who lean towards intelligent, purposeful design are also Christians. Don't assume that all people, who lean towards intelligent design, believe the Adam and Even story. Don't assume that we all believe the Bible to be some infallible book authored by one angry jeolous god. Don't assume that we are all out trying to force intelligent design into school curriculims. Don't assume that we think intelligent design has to mean that the Bible god is the designer. And please don't give into condescension. It's not pretty when Christians do it. It's no more palatable when evolutionists do it.
FHN, beautiful, I might frame it.
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24
Are You Still Affected By Guilt?
by minimus indo you still feel any guilt for celebrating a birthday or holiday or associating with "worldly" people or doing anything that the watchtower has inculcated as being wrong???
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Big Dog
Nope, not one little bit.
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43
The Dangers and Morality of Science
by Big Dog inwith all the discussion here about the dangers of religion, its morality issues, and so on i thought it would be interesting to have a discussion (especially given the large population of science oriented folks on this board) where we discuss the same issues with respect to science.
now this is not meant to be some i want to go back to the dark ages thread, but more so that recognition that there are moral, ethical, and hell survival issues with science that need to be addressed.. michael crichton as most know is both a famous author and an extremely bright individual who attended harvard medical school, in his novel jurrassic park he raised some issues with science and its dangers: .
"jurassic park was intended to warn the general public concerning the inherent dangers of biotechnology first of all, but also science in general.
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Big Dog
I think that the pursuit of knowledge should not - and in most cases cannot - be limited. However, ethics are required in deteriming the methodology of the science, and in the application of the new knowledge.
SNG,
You are saying no knowledge is inherently "good" or "bad", it just is knowledge, the problem is in the application and method. I would go with that to a point, except, I'm trying to see how I can be neutral about say, atomic weapons and the knowledge to build them, I'm trying to see nukes as a neutral thing and I'm having a hard time with it. One could say nuclear weapons are a by product of nuclear engineering or atomic science, I'm not sure who claims credit for nukes, but its a pretty nasty by-product of that knowledge. Or let's say an engineered ebola virus with a 99% mortality rate that's airborne, again, I'm trying to see this as a neutral thing, its just knowledge but I'm having a hard time with it, or even, why in the world would a human being spend hours in a lab to create such horrors?
Basically then you are making the same arguement that pro-gun people make, knowledge doesn't kill people, people kill people. But where are the people railing against these sorts of applications of science? I don't see a bunch of Ph.d.'s in lab coats on the sidewalk protesting weapoons development and the like.
The other truism seems to be, well, if we don't do it, someone else will. Hmm, not sure I find that a real "moral" arguement for the advancement of some areas of science.
Chricton made one interesting point in his novel where he likened scientific knowledge to a gun, he said, typically you don't see a karate master out on killing sprees because it took them years of training and discipline to master their skill and therefore they were respectful of its power, where as with science you stand on the shoulders of giants, its like a loaded gun, you need no training, no discipline to wield it, you just pick it up and start shooting. As science advances you pick up what others have done and run with it, but do enough questions get asked like where is this going, what are the possible outcomes of this knowledge? Can humans be trusted with such knowledge? If there is no God, no built in conscience of divine origin, or rules handed down from above, who decides what is moral and what isn't? What measuring stick do we use? Do ends justify means?
Or, let's as you stated talk about methodology, what about animal testing? Tetra makes the point that if you believe in evolution, we are just big brained apes, does that give us the right, the moral right to do what ever we want to our evolutionary cousins that weren't as fortunate to develope such advanced cognition skills? If we are not "special" in the way christians think humans are special then what gives us the right?
People are always ranting on this board about how dangerous reglion is, well, what about the products of science? When did religion ever give its followers the ability to vaporize 100,000 people in the blink of an eye? Science/knowledge/scientists whatever label you want to use have opened up wonderful benefits to mankind in the last century, but they/it also gave us for the first time the true ability to eradicate ourselves as a species, and put that power in the hands a very small group of people. Does the good really out weigh the bad?